Re: DID YOU THINK I WAS GOING TO IGNORE IT?
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Posted by Howard Dennis on June 17, 1999 at 07:50:22:
In Reply to: DID YOU THINK I WAS GOING TO IGNORE IT? posted by TGJB on June 16, 1999 at 17:31:44:
: : : 1) Ragozin posted proudly on his site about a year ago that his office had been responsible for the purchase of twenty five stakes winners for their clients. With two new ones already this year, we are up to 59 SW of well over a hundred stakes. That's more than twice as many in half the time.
: : It comes as no surprise to me that the Ragozin site has old statistics posted. The Ragozin "Webmaster" until just recently was Paul Weinstein, a.k.a. "nicely nicely". My contact with Paul while he was with Ragozin was quite pleasant enough. On a one-to-one basis, he was always very courteous and responsive, and seemed to have a good feel for the "customer service" end of the business. But, I had to laugh when Paul wrote in his "...on a boat to heaven" post that Jerry wanted to refer him to a friend in need of horse-related web work.
: : Now, I could care less about Paul's design of the Ragozin website, but I will say that it was rudimentary at best. I've seen much better webpage design on many other sites, including Thoro-Graph's. I find it hard to believe that Jerry was going to refer Paul to a friend looking for a good webpage designer based on the quality of Paul's work that I've seen. It seems much more likely to me that Jerry kept after Paul because Jerry knew it might be turned around into a great "propaganda" campaign if Jerry could get Paul to come work for him. Obviously it didn't take much to entice Paul, just the cost of a few sets of Thoro-Graph sheets, followed by some new-found job security, which apparently wasn't being too easily found elsewhere.
: : Paul could have come on to the Thoro-Graph site and briefly introduced himself, expressed his newly acquired satisfaction and admiration for the Thoro-Graph product, and left it at that. Instead, he chose to use this forum to serve his own agenda and bash his ex-employer, which not-so-coincidentally seems to serve Jerry's agenda quite well also. What a total lack of class and character demonstrated by Paul! I guess I'm just not a good judge of people after all.
: : Paul claims he was "brain-washed". The initial image of brain-washing is an all-powerful and irresistible method of achieving total control over the human mind. But not in this case. Instead, it's just an excuse for Paul to use the word as a rallying point. What it really is is his justification for his own failure and irresponsible accusations. Brain-washing actually only reveals the weaknesses and vulnerabilities of the follower, not the strengths of the leader. But 'bon voyage' to Paul. Unfortunately for him, his trip might not last very long. Seems to me there's a good chance that he's just a pawn in this latest "propaganda" game, and might well be "thrown overboard" once his usefulness is over.
: : Normally, I visit both sites in an attempt to try learn something about handicapping, sometimes contributing to a discussion or playing devil's advocate. As far as I can gather, anyone who shares that interest in either or both sites is very tired of the constant competition-bashing. Ironically, this bashing was one of the things Paul always claimed to dislike the most. But I have to remember....that was back when he was "brain-washed".
: : : 2) Look - it's this simple. Ragozin has always enjoyed a tremendous advantage in resources - lots of field agents (Nebble, Ron Anderson, Hardoun, Weisen, Howard Dennis, Wydecka, Lou Rose) while we have only one part time guy (in California)....
: : I'm confused. What about the guy who had to be asked by Bob Bork to stop trying to sell Thoro-Graph in the Arlington Park Gold Room without permission. Wasn't he a Thoro-Graph field agent also?
: : : They also had Harvey Pack (who got their product free) shilling for them on TV and at the paddock club, where he bad-mouthed us regularly.
: : Hey, if Harvey got fired, maybe he's looking for work also! Why doesn't Jerry give him a call and send him some free Thoro-Graph sheets? Funny, how come when it's Thoro-Graph, it's promotion and marketing, but when it's Ragozin, it's 'shilling'?
: : : ....No-one in this industry is growing as rapidly as we are....,
: : Not true. I heard Silver Charm was growing so rapidly they had to retire him!
: : : and a lot of the new accounts are ex-Raggies - some of whom said so recently, on our site and Ragozins.
: : Wow! Earth-shattering news. I'm sure Ragozin will start folding the tent once he hears about this. The end is near.
: : : 3) If you really think there are more postings from our guys on their site than vica versa, you haven't been paying attention...
: : Seems to me both sites are filled with anonymous trouble-makers. People without the balls to post under their real names who probably don't even use *either* product. But they like to stir up the pot, and delight in the result. Kind of like the guy who phones in a bomb threat, and then hangs around nearby to watch everybody panic and evacuate.
: : : 4) The reason they won't discuss TG numbers is obvious - they don't want comparison.
: : Or maybe they just don't care?
: : : 5) I know VG was a slower horse on Ragozin, but I'm still trying to find out how fast he was relative to the rest of The Foster field, at the weights.
: : Hey, I've got an idea! Why not ask Paul?
: : Jim Dennis
: If I understand the way the game is being played, I'm going to get slammed for responding to these attacks. I guess I'm just supposed to let crap like this go unanswered - or censor it, like Friedman.
: Just this afternoon, Jim, I told Paul that I thought one of the anonymous postings came from you. Paul said no - you were a good guy. I told him he was on the other side now, and to get tied on.
: I'm sure Paul will have his own comments, but as for the garbage that applies to me:
: 1) I hooked up Paul with Katherine Wilkens of the DRF, who was overhauling their website. As it turned out, she had just hired someone. Anyone who wants to verify this can call Katherine at the New York office of the DRF.
: The quote on number of Stake winners came not from "old statistics" posted by Paul, but from a posting by Ragozin himself, attacking me. If anyone wants a copy, call me and I'll fax one.
: 2) The guy who was distributing the product at Arlington was our trackman, Roger Vice. He's not a field agent - he's a well known professional horseplayer. While he gave a couple of seminars for us a few years ago, he does not attempt to recruit players, as everyone in Chicago knows, including you. And he was bringing sets to the room as a convenience for the other big bettors.
: There are lots of people in the public eye using Thoro-Graph - Dave Johnson, James Ough, Caton Brader ect. - but have you ever heard them bash Ragozin in public, as Harvey did to us? And ultimately Harvey did use our stuff, recently, when he was working for OTB.
: 3) Yeah that's why they don't discuss our numbers - becouse they don't care.
: And yes sports fans, Jim is the brother of Howard Dennis, who is one of the Raggie field agents, and if you wonder why I'm always on edge about this, we have been dealing with this garbage on a daily basis for years, without having adequate means to respond. Here, on the internet, we can and will, and anyone who doesn't like it is advised not to read it. And I would add that, other than Pauls initial posting, everything we have posted has been a response, not an attack.
: Jim, you had one thing right- "Brain-washing actually only reveals the weakness and vulnerabilities of the follower, not the strengths of the leader." Couldn't have said it better myself. TGJB
I don't usually get involved in this bulletin board business because i believe whole heartedly that this forum should be used as a tool for discussion, and I know that it is not easy to either start a discussion or have a usefull discourse. There is a group out there that really needs help (like Peter) and is always asking for other opinions. Unfortunately this is a game for people who make their own opinions. Not that a discussion wouldnot be valuable but they might be carried on better live where everyone had the same sheet. The nice part of using speed figures is immediately after the race you can reexamine your opinion and usually see where you have gone wrong or why the winner was a good play etc.
But this is not what I started to post about:
"And he was bringing sets to the room as a convenience for the other big bettors." I find this a bit self serving in Jerry's post in response to my brother's post. Having spent many years on the Chicago scene other than Roger and one other guy I don't really think your Chicago customers are big players. They are basically guys who want to save $5.00 and get all that good info that thorograph has. If the thorograph product is so good why do you give it away so much and cheapen the value of the paying users. For that matter if your numbers are so good why does Ragozin still outsell thorograph 25-1 or better? Poor flat numbers that are difficult to handicap. They are I will agree good for players that don't have a clue and can't find a horses' level without being artifically adjusted by the number cruncher. HMD
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