Interesting point but I'm not so sure it applies. It only works if you believe trainers are benching the Derby horses in the Juv because they think the can win at 1 1/8 but not at 1 1/16. The point is not the the Derby winner has been flying late and running out of ground in the juv, it's that he hasn't even been there at all. However, as far as winners go, is there any doubt that Favorite Trick, Point Given, Anees or any of the other Derby busts would have been able to go another 1/16? I think they all would have won. Finally, I hadn't caught the Remsen angle but I wasn't suggesting Derby winners weren't class horses at 2 (except for Charismatic) I was just saying that they weren't precocious enough to make it to the big dance at 2 and those who did, don't seem to do too well in the Derby.