your point about surfaces changing speed when they get wet is well taken. i have always believed that the belmont surface is on the deeper side (compared to other major tracks), and it changes dramatically when it gets wet/fast. if i saw another track change in the same fashion when it gets soaked, i would certainly take notice (i will keep an eye on SA, thanks for the info). jerry, you do have to admit though that the CD surface at times takes on the opposite characteristics. looks at smarty's derby time over the wet surface, 2:05 and change? is the CD surface quicker than it used to be?