Damn, an OJ reference. I hate being called naive. My favorite Bruce song is Spirits in The Night from Greetings from Asbury Park.

In a posting made on March 2 at 18:06 there was a rant, in relation to Crafty Player's infamous Sunday score, which contained the following: "HOT SHOT COMMODITIES BROKER/ HARNESS GUYS/potent vets".(Emphasis original) We can look in the program to see who the hot shot is, but could we have a little more background on "harness guys" and "potent vets" at The Meadowlands? This is one I'm ready to believe, because when I worked on the backside in the early 80s I remember hearing that the exotic performance enhancing "cocktails" we all heard about were developed by show horse people in Canada, who pass it on to Canadian harness trainers, and then to US harness trainers, and then to US flat tracks. (Nothing like some 20 year old hearsay.)

In a posting the day before(3/1/05 11:16)was the following "A great many NY players/racetrackers (including horsemen) believe that Dutrow may be using SOMETHING" (emphasis original).

I hate being spoken to in a condescending manner. In December 1986, I sold all but one of the horses I owned/trained and took a normal job in Manhattan. I did not sever my ties with the game I love. I would say since January 1987, I have gone to a NYRA track (live)an average of 8-10 times a month;
on a few other days I may have snuck into an OTB.

I think I may qualify as a player, racetracker or horseman, or all of the above and I THINK DUTROW MAY BE USING SOMETHING, I THINK LAKE MAY BE USING SOMETHING, I THINK IWINSKI MAY BE USING SOMETHING. No, TGJB, I did not forget about Schettino Spring/Summer. I THINK SCHETTINO WAS USING SOMETHING when he was winning above a 25% clip. Let me give a hypothetical: A trainer that wins 10 races all year, but wins 6 of them in a 5 week period, WAS USING SOMETHING FOR THOSE 5 WEEKS.

Here's the problem. Until they develop a test for SOMETHING, its not CHEATING. If you choose to play the game, you are really going to have to take SOMETHING into account when choosing what races and horses you play. It will remain that way until we see the proof/ positives. It would not surprise me if we see them next week. It would not surprise me if we never see them.

From the same post, this board, referring to Dutrow, Jr: "There are many horsemen on the NY circuit with at least equal talent.." Jeez, even when the guy is trying to say something good, he won't name names.

I think Shug McGaughey, Michael Hushion, Allen Jerkens, Kiaran McLaughlin, Nick Zito, Richard Violette, Timothy Hills, Bill Mott are all excellent horsemen. They dont have a stable set up to compete with Dutrow on a year round basis. Except for Hushion, they dont play the claim game. Dutrow also gets what to me is a significant edge by being stabled at Aqueduct most of the year, thus having to ship less than Belmont based trainers. The above trainers are listed in no particular order, and I'm sure I left some
good trainers off inadvertently


TGJB, your product is state of the art. Your customer service is much appreciated. But even the most loyal users of this product must admit that they are making a leap of faith when they accept the fact that a single digit (if the horse is fast enough)can unequivocally characterize a horse's performance on a given day. This performance is usually the result of weeks of training, a minute and a half or so of physical strength and instinct from the jock, not to mention a couple hundred years of breeding. Thats a lot of information to incorporate in one number or a pattern of these numbers. We haven't even mentioned vets, pace factors, track biases, or subtle shoeing/equipment changes.

It's even more of a leap of faith to aggregate these numbers and make a conclusion as to WHY these animals run as fast as they do. I do not question the value of your evidence, but we need to see the positives to support it. The 4 milkshakers out West are a start.

Your hosting of this message board shows you believe in free speech. I wish you felt as strongly about the dangers of circumstantial evidence, especially when most of it is couched in hearsay.

Looks like when Classhandicapper "dropped it" it fell on me.

I don't want to log in one day and see that the ROTW is the Crucible Handicap from Salem Downs.