RichieBee,

The two examples you named are situations where Beyer and T-Graph have horses running fast figures.

But the argument is more that T-Graph has horses running significantly faster than Beyer, relative to prior years. There is no question that Beyer and Jerry have completely different views on the speed of today's horses versus other year's horses.

Jerry had four horses this year going into the Derby with 4 of the 5 fastest figs for a 3-year old EVER.

Beyer had Bellamy Road with a big fig, but actually the other 3 had BELOW average Beyers for their races, relative to previous years.

After the Derby, Beyer called this one of the worst (slowest) 3 year old crops ever. Based on figures, Jerry can't possibly agree with that.

Anyway, my point is that it isn't Jerry and Andy on one side of the argument and Miff and others on the other side. Jerry stands alone on this, with Rags somewhere in the middle (of the three figuremakers)

Personally, I don't think it is a big deal as to whether horses now are faster than horses 20 years ago. I think what matters most is whether Jerry is right about the 7th race at Oaklawn versus the 3rd at Belmont, versus the 6th at Santa Anita.

However, if Miff's point is that the potential inaccuracy of the figures of today's horses versus yesteryear's horses could be driven by a fundamental flaw in methodology that would also bring into doubt all of today's figures at T-Graph, then that is a different story.