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Re: Fast pace, new top (758 Views)
Posted by: (IP Logged)
Date: September 25, 2003 02:59PM

>But if you have any EVIDENCE that a fast pace improves the FIGURES of closers, present it please.<

I made my own Beyer-like speed and pace figures for years and I currently look at several sets regularly (that include the track variant used).

I spent most of my reseach time years ago looking at high levels stakes horses because I believe they are more consistent. That way I would have a better chance to isolate pace as factor in final time.

Over the years I ran into numerous examples of closers that put in lifetime top figures off a duel in front of them. Much more than I would have expectd to see were it a random occurrence. The horses invariably went back to their normal figures afterwards. You categorize that as a bounce. I categorize lot of performance moves like that as a bounce also, but not these. I was suspicious.

So I started thinking about why this could be happening. In observing the way races developed, I came to understand that closers also have periods in a race where they are either being used hard or not to get or improve position. One might call it a duel behind the leaders to catch up.

So you are right. It is a theory. But it is a theory that is consistent with observations of duels on the front end and what happens to the horses. It is also consistent with what would happen if you and I went to the track and clocked ourselves under various pace scenarios. It's quite logical. If I run too fast and hard in the middle of the race, it will hurt me.

>give us examples where it will happen in advance. Otherwise we are back to mystical handicapping theories like class. <

That is impossible. I can rarely predict with "certainty" how a race will develop. However, I do try to gain an edge where I can.

What I can do is after the fact is tell you that a specific horse (closer) had a perfect trip behind collapsing duelers and was able to improve his position mid race without any extreme effort. Therefore, the figure he earned under those optimum conditions is less likely to be duplicated. I would also say that if you made a separate variant for that race because the final time did not seem to fit in with the rest of the day, you might be adjusting that time for the impact of the pace and NOT for the track speed without even knowing it. (read that sentence again) Therefore, you would getting the right answer for the wrong reason.

What I would suggest to you is that whenever you see a very slow or very fast pace and/or extreme battles on the front end to make note of it when you actually make the figure.

In the mean time, next time a major horse that we are all familiar with earns a huge figure under ideal circumstances or a really bad one under terrible conditions, I will point out the race and horse and why I think the figure is an incorrect refelction of its prior performance beforehand.



Subject Written By Posted
Fast pace, new top (1086 Views) OPM 09/25/2003 01:28AM
Re: Fast pace, new top (736 Views) 09/25/2003 09:03AM
Re: Fast pace, new top (662 Views) JimP 09/25/2003 12:04PM
Re: Fast pace, new top (749 Views) 09/25/2003 02:32PM
Re: Fast pace, new top (858 Views) jbelfior 09/25/2003 03:13PM
Re: Fast pace, new top (700 Views) TGJB 09/25/2003 03:28PM
Re: Fast pace, new top (713 Views) jbelfior 09/25/2003 04:06PM
Re: Fast pace, new top (704 Views) 09/25/2003 07:51PM
Re: Fast pace, new top (697 Views) RICH 09/26/2003 10:13AM
Re: Fast pace, new top (722 Views) Mall 09/26/2003 11:13AM
Re: Fast pace, new top (718 Views) jbelfior 09/26/2003 11:56AM
Re: Fast pace, new top (814 Views) Mall 09/26/2003 02:25PM
Re: Fast pace, new top (765 Views) TGJB 09/26/2003 02:33PM
Re: Fast pace, new top (670 Views) Silver Charm 09/26/2003 03:21PM
Re: Fast pace, new top (664 Views) jbelfior 09/26/2003 04:47PM
Congaree (647 Views) derby1592 09/26/2003 05:07PM
Re: Congaree (688 Views) Silver Charm 09/26/2003 05:20PM
Re: Congaree (726 Views) JR 09/26/2003 07:04PM
Re: Fast pace, new top (735 Views) P-Dub 09/28/2003 01:53AM
Gutless? (764 Views) Mall 09/28/2003 08:59PM
Re: Gutless? (760 Views) OPM 09/28/2003 09:20PM
Re: Gutless? (814 Views) Mall 09/28/2003 10:43PM
Re: Gutless? (752 Views) TGJB 09/29/2003 12:27PM
Re: Gutless? (711 Views) Mall 09/29/2003 08:11PM
Re: Gutless? (680 Views) Frost King 09/29/2003 10:59PM
Hey Frost King (703 Views) Upper Nile 09/30/2003 07:53AM
Re: Hey Frost King (1068 Views) Frost King 09/30/2003 11:33PM
Re: Gutless? (821 Views) alm 10/03/2003 11:31AM
Re: Gutless? (780 Views) beyerguy 10/08/2003 05:56PM
Re: Gutless? (656 Views) 10/08/2003 07:44PM
Re: Fast pace, new top (669 Views) OPM 09/27/2003 09:58PM
Re: Fast pace, new top (658 Views) alm 09/27/2003 01:03PM
Re: Fast pace, new top (637 Views) 09/27/2003 04:32PM
Re: Fast pace, new top (786 Views) alm 09/27/2003 08:46PM
Re: Fast pace, new top (897 Views) 09/25/2003 07:33PM
hey JimP (708 Views) Michael D. 09/27/2003 09:58PM
example: Heat Haze (774 Views) Michael D. 09/27/2003 10:43PM
Re: hey JimP (698 Views) JimP 09/28/2003 09:54AM
Re: hey JimP (724 Views) Michael D. 09/28/2003 12:01PM
Re: Fast pace, new top (753 Views) TGJB 09/25/2003 12:42PM
Re: Fast pace, new top (758 Views) 09/25/2003 02:59PM
Re: Fast pace, new top (616 Views) Michael D. 09/27/2003 09:09PM
ahh, 1991 (744 Views) BB 09/28/2003 01:43AM
Re: ahh, 1991 (746 Views) Michael D. 09/28/2003 12:08PM


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