Your Ask The Experts ID
is separate from your
Order Online Account ID
 Race of the Week:  2024 Kentucky Oaks/Derby Days Final Figures Churchill Downs May 3 & May 4, 2024 
Order Online
Buy TG Data
Complete Menu of
TG Data products
Simulcast Books
Customize a Value
Package of Select
TG Data
Sheet Requests
Order The Last Figure for Any Horse
Free Products
Redboard Room
Download and Review previous days' data.
Race of the Week
With detailed comments
ThoroTrack
Email notification when your horse races
Information
Introduction
For newcomers.
Samples and Tutorials
For Horsemen
Consulting services and Graph Racing
Sales Sites
Where to buy TG around the country
Archives
Historical races and handicapping articles
Handicapping
Hall of Fame
Major handicapping contest winners
Home Page
Re: Derby views from a Ragozin user (1468 Views)
Posted by: toppled (IP Logged)
Date: April 29, 2007 06:18PM

Having viewed the same data,and Thorographs on major contenders here is how I see it. I use breeding data #s from Mike Veitch on OTB tv and it differers from your's yielding a different opinion:

Street Sense-Both have a regression from the Breeders Cup race. Thorograph has him slightly regressing in the Blue Grass from Tampa Bay, Rags has him with a minimal improvement, but not near the Breeder's Cup #. Breeding says he won't make 1 1/4. Between his breeding and his 3yo #s not being among the best in here, I can't see him winning.

Any Given Saturday-His top is only competitive. I'm smelling an 0-2-X pattern. I'm sensing regression, not progress. No matter what excuse they want to use, he tired going 1 1/8 and Johnny V went to Quay.

Scat Daddy: His breeding # is weak. I agree with your analysis. He has a much better foundation on Thorographs than Rags. Thorograph readers may be less inclined to expect a bounce.

Circular Quay: Similar pattern on both. Big 3yo jump from final 2yo #. But-we don't have a real 3yo 1st race # due to Slew's Tizzy dumping his jockey right in front of him. So coming off his 2yo tops, which are right there with all the others except SS's monster BC (which SS has not come close to duplicating) he breaks through as a 3yo in his only measurable race has 8 weeks off and is working great. The breeding # says he will run all day, I see a pairup at least and I don't know if we've even hit this horses's peak yet. My main concern is a slow enough pace to get him jammed up making his move. I'll be playing him as 1 of my 2 major plays. However, based on what the rest he needed after La, he's a total toss in the Preakness if he runs well in Ky.

Curlin: Rags, slower than some of the other contenders, Thorograph, 2nd fastest 3yo race. I agree in general with you in terms of playing him, but he scares the heck out of me.

Nobiz Like Showbiz-This is one horse that is a different read on each product. On Thorograph, he looks like a horse who is slower than the main contenders and is not progressing, even though his 2yo #s are good enough to compete with all but SS's BC. An optomist might see this as a delayed explosion, waiting to happen. A pessimist would say he's too slow with no progress and not worth playing. As you've stated, Rags #s show good first race & regression. A pessimist would say he runs best only off long layoffs or he's best at 1 mile and regresses as the distance gets longer. An optomist would take a different view: his two tops in his 1st races show he's right there with the fastest horses, he regressed in his 2nd start of the year, and his 3rd race of year #s are irrelevant because he easily won the Remsen and did not need to run any faster since he was so much in control of the race; and his Wood was a winning effort when the goal was just keeping him fit for the Derby. I'm taking the optomist view-call it either the delayed explosion on TG or a slight move forward from his top on R, and he's my other major play. I believe this horse is set to peak on 5/5 by a trainer who also knows how to peak a horse for big races, hasn't even scratched his best #s and unlike SS, has the breeding #s to easily handle 1 1/4.

I agree on Great Hunter noting that on Thorographs he shows a regression from his 2yo top and I don't believe he has a strong enough foundation to move forward.

Hard Spun-His #s are not as competitive as others, his training up to the race has been suspect, and I don't think he's ever beaten a horse anywhere near the class of the top horses here. I'm not putting a dime on him.

The only other horse I can see winning is Cowtown Cat, but he'll have to improve on both sheets. I think Zanjero can drop into the exotics but is too slow to win. Dominican is a tough read due to polytrack to dirt, wouldn't be a total shock if he ran ok, win would shock me.

I'm looking at Doubles, p3s with Nobiz Like Showbiz & Circular Quay as my plays. Saving with tris and supers with Cowtown Cat, Curlin, Street Sense, Zanjero, Great Hunter and Any Given Saturday(in case he doesn't 0-2-X). The horse I want nothing to do with is Hard Spun, even though he's bred to run all day.



Subject Written By Posted
Derby views from a Ragozin user (1394 Views) dpatent 04/29/2007 04:38PM
Re: Derby views from a Ragozin user (971 Views) miff 04/29/2007 05:16PM
Re: Derby views from a Ragozin user (898 Views) MO 04/29/2007 05:38PM
Re: Derby views from a Ragozin user (865 Views) Chuckles_the_Clown2 04/29/2007 06:07PM
Re: Derby views from a Ragozin user (757 Views) richiebee 04/29/2007 08:35PM
Re: Derby views from a Ragozin user (581 Views) Chuckles_the_Clown2 04/30/2007 08:34PM
Re: Derby views from a Ragozin user (716 Views) Flighted Iron 04/29/2007 11:11PM
Re: Derby views from a Ragozin user (699 Views) Chuckles_the_Clown2 04/29/2007 11:25PM
Re: Derby views from a Ragozin user (678 Views) MO 04/30/2007 12:38AM
Re: Derby views from a Ragozin user (696 Views) MO 04/30/2007 12:35AM
Re: Derby views from a Ragozin user (805 Views) miff 04/29/2007 06:10PM
Re: Derby views from a Ragozin user (861 Views) TGJB 04/30/2007 01:59PM
Re: Derby views from a Ragozin user (691 Views) miff 04/30/2007 02:43PM
Re: Derby views from a Ragozin user (790 Views) TGJB 04/30/2007 03:31PM
Re: Derby views from a Ragozin user (617 Views) fkach 04/30/2007 03:35PM
Re: Derby views from a Ragozin user (641 Views) miff 04/30/2007 03:55PM
Re: Derby views from a Ragozin user (564 Views) davidrex 04/30/2007 05:49PM
Re: Derby views from a Ragozin user (581 Views) fkach 04/30/2007 03:32PM
Re: Derby views from a Ragozin user (625 Views) Michael D. 04/30/2007 03:05PM
Re: Derby views from a Ragozin user (861 Views) TGJB 04/30/2007 03:46PM
Re: Derby views from a Ragozin user (611 Views) dpatent 04/30/2007 03:17PM
Re: Derby views from a Ragozin user (614 Views) Michael D. 04/30/2007 03:33PM
Re: Derby views from a Ragozin user (608 Views) fkach 04/30/2007 03:44PM
Figures in Slow Pace Races (584 Views) BitPlayer 05/01/2007 08:58AM
Well Well (634 Views) TGJB 05/03/2007 01:47PM
Re: Well Well (545 Views) Silver Charm 05/03/2007 02:47PM
Re: Well Well (663 Views) TGJB 05/04/2007 04:29PM
Re: Derby views from a Ragozin user (687 Views) Chuckles_the_Clown2 04/29/2007 06:03PM
Re: Derby views from a Ragozin user (1468 Views) toppled 04/29/2007 06:18PM
Re: Derby views from a Ragozin user (747 Views) Chuckles_the_Clown2 04/29/2007 07:13PM
Re: Derby views from a Ragozin user (604 Views) toppled 04/29/2007 07:29PM
Re: Derby views from a Ragozin user (706 Views) dpatent 04/29/2007 07:40PM
Re: Derby views from a Ragozin user (603 Views) MO 04/29/2007 08:20PM
The OTB breeding #s (690 Views) toppled 04/29/2007 08:32PM
Re: The OTB breeding #s (673 Views) dpatent 04/29/2007 10:08PM
Re: The OTB breeding #s (613 Views) toppled 04/29/2007 10:59PM
OTB Dosage (595 Views) Chuckles_the_Clown2 04/30/2007 07:08AM
Re: OTB Dosage (484 Views) toppled 05/01/2007 06:18AM
Re: OTB Dosage (511 Views) Chuckles_the_Clown2 05/01/2007 07:17AM
Re: Derby views from a Ragozin user (668 Views) MO 04/29/2007 07:29PM
Re: Derby views from a Non-Ragozin user (665 Views) Silver Charm 04/29/2007 07:59PM
Re: Derby views from a Non-Ragozin user (610 Views) MO 04/29/2007 08:22PM
Re: Derby views from a Non-Ragozin user (619 Views) MO 04/29/2007 08:31PM
Cowtown Cat on the pace?; Question for Silver Charm (648 Views) BitPlayer 04/29/2007 08:46PM
Re: Cowtown Cat on the pace?; Question for Silver Charm (618 Views) Silver Charm 04/29/2007 09:03PM
Re: Cowtown Cat on the pace?; Question for Silver Charm (538 Views) Chuckles_the_Clown2 04/30/2007 08:39PM
Re: Derby views from a Non-Ragozin user (668 Views) Chuckles_the_Clown2 04/30/2007 06:56AM
Re: Derby views from a Non-Ragozin user (642 Views) Silver Charm 04/30/2007 07:17AM
Re: Derby views from a Non-Ragozin user (574 Views) Chuckles_the_Clown2 04/30/2007 07:35AM
Re: Derby views from a Non-Ragozin user (674 Views) Silver Charm 04/30/2007 07:41AM
Re: Derby views from a Non-Ragozin user (680 Views) big18741 04/30/2007 09:22AM
Re: Derby views from a Non-Ragozin user (494 Views) Chuckles_the_Clown2 04/30/2007 07:53PM
Re: Derby views from a Non-Ragozin user (572 Views) big18741 04/30/2007 08:00PM
Re: Derby views from a Non-Ragozin user (663 Views) tucker 04/30/2007 08:21PM
Re: Derby views from a Non-Ragozin user (544 Views) big18741 04/30/2007 09:12PM
Re: Derby views from a Non-Ragozin user (512 Views) MO 04/30/2007 09:27PM
Re: Derby views from a Non-Ragozin user (509 Views) ajkreider 04/30/2007 09:31PM
Re: Derby views from a Non-Ragozin user (500 Views) MO 04/30/2007 09:42PM
Re: Derby views from a Non-Ragozin user (500 Views) RICH 04/30/2007 09:45PM
Re: Derby views from a Non-Ragozin user (510 Views) Chuckles_the_Clown2 04/30/2007 10:52PM
Re: Derby views from a Non-Ragozin user (533 Views) RICH 04/30/2007 09:43PM
Re: Derby views from a Non-Ragozin user (526 Views) big18741 04/30/2007 09:59PM
Re: Derby views from a Non-Ragozin user (493 Views) ajkreider 04/30/2007 10:05PM
Re: Derby views from a Non-Ragozin user (522 Views) Chuckles_the_Clown2 04/30/2007 08:37PM
Re: Derby views from a Non-Ragozin user (536 Views) Silver Charm 04/30/2007 11:11PM
Re: Derby views from a Non-Ragozin user (658 Views) ajkreider 05/01/2007 10:05AM
Re: Derby views from a Non-Ragozin user (533 Views) easygoer89 04/30/2007 08:38PM
Re: Derby views from a Non-Ragozin user (540 Views) Chuckles_the_Clown2 04/30/2007 08:51PM


Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
This forum powered by Phorum.

Thoro-Graph 180 Varick Street New York, NY 10014 ---- Click here for the Ask The Experts Archives.