Your Ask The Experts ID
is separate from your
Order Online Account ID
 Race of the Week:  2024 Kentucky Oaks/Derby Days Final Figures Churchill Downs May 4 & May 5, 2024 
Order Online
Buy TG Data
Complete Menu of
TG Data products
Simulcast Books
Customize a Value
Package of Select
TG Data
Sheet Requests
Order The Last Figure for Any Horse
Free Products
Redboard Room
Download and Review previous days' data.
Race of the Week
With detailed comments
ThoroTrack
Email notification when your horse races
Information
Introduction
For newcomers.
Samples and Tutorials
For Horsemen
Consulting services and Graph Racing
Sales Sites
Where to buy TG around the country
Archives
Historical races and handicapping articles
Handicapping
Hall of Fame
Major handicapping contest winners
Home Page
Re: Pace, Final Time, Kings Bishop (582 Views)
Posted by: TGJB (IP Logged)
Date: September 17, 2003 01:37PM

1-- Not to be too harsh about it, but "it is apparent" that sometimes fast paced races have slow final times and sometimes slow paced races have slow final times,so the slow times must have been produced by the pace? Certainly extreme slow paces can affect final time for the reason you mentioned, and an EXTREME hot pace can as well (see the recent match race at Del Mar), which is one reason I sometimes have to disregard final time when making a figure. We mark those races with "pace" designations.

2-- Logic would indicate that a hot pace would only affect those running the fast fractions, not the ones behind them. Final time for most of the field should not be affected.

3-- Who were the "many" figure makers who concluded the track changed speed dramatically between those two races Travers day? Beyer did, I did not-- I used a 1 point different variant, which is a very minor change in keeping with what happens virtually every day at every track. In fact, 5 of the 6 sprints on that day fell into a very tight spread, which is unusual because of the wind (4, below). Pretty Wild ran out of his mind, and bounced the next time. Several solid horses in the KB (Eye of the Tiger etc.) ran to the numbers they had going in, and off the top of my head at least one (Frankel's horse) ran a new top. The ones near the hot pace did not run their best figures despite running 1-2, and that is something some handicappers may take into account, and some may not.

4-- There was a significant wind during the races, ranging from 10 to 20 mph, mostly at 10 o'clock (imagine you are looking down at the face of a clock, with 12 across from the grandstand). The effect of wind is geometric, so the effect of a 20 mph wind is 4 times that of 10 (10x10=100, 20x20=400), and the wind was behind them in that long run down the backside at 7f, producing the potential for some fast early fractions, and into their faces through the stretch.

This wind stuff is something we haven't discussed enough here. Since the effect is geometric and since the speed and direction are estimated before and after the race (the observer is watching the running of the race), the data we and Ragozin use can be off a little, so at significant wind speeds the margin of error can get pretty high. Especially since there is a very large structure (grandstand) bouncing the wind currents around. And there is an even greater margin for error for those that don't use wind, either for final or (especially) pace figures, or for those (Ragozin)that take the data they get as ironclad fact, and create hard and fast rules limiting the amount of discretion that figure makers have in deciding variants. Ultimately, the only realistic way to make figures is by using the figure histories of the horses.



TGJB



Subject Written By Posted
Pace, Final Time, Kings Bishop (1057 Views) 09/17/2003 08:24AM
Re: Pace, Final Time, Kings Bishop (598 Views) jbelfior 09/17/2003 10:53AM
Re: Pace, Final Time, Kings Bishop (597 Views) 09/17/2003 02:27PM
Re: Pace, Final Time, Kings Bishop (582 Views) TGJB 09/17/2003 01:37PM
Re: Pace, Final Time, Kings Bishop (613 Views) 09/17/2003 02:52PM
Re: Pace, Final Time, Kings Bishop (693 Views) jbelfior 09/17/2003 04:56PM
Re: Pace, Final Time, Kings Bishop (612 Views) derby1592 09/17/2003 07:54PM
Re: Pace, Final Time, Kings Bishop (654 Views) 09/18/2003 07:24PM
Re: Pace, Final Time, Kings Bishop (566 Views) 09/17/2003 02:57PM
Re: Pace, Final Time, Kings Bishop (661 Views) TGJB 09/17/2003 03:04PM
Re: Pace, Final Time, Kings Bishop (616 Views) 09/17/2003 03:14PM
Re: Pace, Final Time, Kings Bishop (698 Views) 09/17/2003 03:08PM
Re: Pace, Final Time, Kings Bishop (625 Views) TGJB 09/17/2003 03:21PM
Re: Pace, Final Time, Kings Bishop (567 Views) 09/17/2003 03:48PM
Re: Pace, Final Time, Kings Bishop (683 Views) JimP 09/17/2003 04:23PM
Re: Pace, Final Time, Kings Bishop (602 Views) texasturfmaster 09/19/2003 05:33PM
Re: Pace, Final Time, Kings Bishop (620 Views) TGJB 09/19/2003 06:19PM
Re: Pace, Final Time, Kings Bishop (566 Views) fasteddie 09/18/2003 10:02AM
Re: Pace, Final Time, Kings Bishop (581 Views) 09/18/2003 07:26PM
Re: Pace, Final Time, Kings Bishop (634 Views) TGJB 09/19/2003 12:36PM
Re: Pace, Final Time, Kings Bishop (608 Views) 09/19/2003 03:42PM
Re: Pace, Final Time, Kings Bishop (577 Views) 09/17/2003 02:37PM
Re: Pace, Final Time, Kings Bishop (638 Views) beyerguy 10/08/2003 06:21PM
Beyerexpert (670 Views) 10/08/2003 07:32PM


Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
This forum powered by Phorum.

Thoro-Graph 180 Varick Street New York, NY 10014 ---- Click here for the Ask The Experts Archives.